For performance, write it in C

Whenever the question of performance comes up with scripting languages
such as Ruby, Perl or Python there will be people whose response can be
summarised as “Write it in C”. I am one such person. Some people take
offence at this and label us trolls or heretics of the true programming
language (take your pick).

I am assuming here that when people talk about performance they really
mean speed. Some will disagree but this is what I am talking about.

In this post I want to clear some things up and provide benchmarks as to
why you should take “Write it in C” seriously. Personally I like to
write my projects in Ruby or Perl or Python and then convert them to C
to get a performance boost. How much of a boost? Well here I will give
you some hard data and source code so that you can see just how much of
a boost C can give you.

The mini project in question is to generate all the valid Latin squares.
A Latin square is a grid of numbers (lets say a 9 x 9 grid) that has the
numbers 1 to 9 appear only once in each row and column. Sudoku grids are
a subset of Latin squares.

The approach taken is to create a list of all the permutations and then
build up a grid row by row checking that the newly added row does not
conflict with any of the previous rows. If the final row can be added
without problem the solution is printed and the search for the next one
starts. It is in essence depth first search. The first version of the
program that I wrote in Perl took 473 minutes to generate all the valid
5 x 5 Latin squares, version four of the program took 12 minutes and 51
seconds. The C version of the program took 5.5 seconds to produce
identical results. All run on the same hardware.

[Latin]$ time ./Latin1.pl 5 > x5

real 473m45.370s
user 248m59.752s
sys 2m54.598s

[Latin]$ time ./Latin4.pl 5 > x5

real 12m51.178s
user 12m14.066s
sys 0m7.101s

[Latin]$ time ./c_version.sh 5

real 0m5.519s
user 0m4.585s
sys 0m0.691s

This is what I mean when I say that coding in C will improve the
performance of your program. The improvement goes beyond percentages, it
is in orders of magnitude. I think that the effort is worth it. If a 5 x
5 grid with 120 permutations took 12 minutes in Perl, how long would a 6

  • 6 grid with 720 permutations take? What unit of measure would you be
    using for a 9 x 9 grid?

Size Permutations
==== ============
1 1
2 2
3 6
4 24
5 120
6 720
7 5040
8 40320
9 362880

Now lets look at first version of the code:

 1  #!/usr/bin/perl -w

 2  use strict;
 3  use warnings;

 4  use Algorithm::Permute;

 5  my $width_of_board = shift;

 6  my @permutations;

 7  my $p = new Algorithm::Permute( [ 1 .. $width_of_board ] );

 8  while ( my @res = $p->next ) {
 9      push @permutations, [@res];
10  }
11  my $number_of_permutations = scalar(@permutations);

12  for ( my $x = 0 ; $x < $number_of_permutations ; $x++ ) {
13      add_a_line($x);
14  }

Lines 1 to 11 just build up a list of all the permutations using the
handy Algorithm::Permute module from CPAN. Lines 12 to 14 starts on the
first row of the solution by trying out all possible permutations for
the first row.

15  sub add_a_line {
16      my @lines = @_;

17      my $size = scalar(@lines);

18      my $ok = 1;
19      for ( my $x = 0 ; $x < $size ; $x++ ) {
20          for ( my $y = 0 ; $y < $size ; $y++ ) {
21              if ( $x != $y ) {
22                  $ok = 0 unless compare( $lines[$x], $lines[$y] 

);
23 }
24 }
25 }

26      if ($ok) {
27          if ( $size == $width_of_board ) {
28              print join(':', map { p($_) } @lines) . "\n";
29          }
30          else {
31              for ( my $x = 0 ; $x < $number_of_permutations ;

$x++ ) {
32 add_a_line( @lines, $x );
33 }
34 }
35 }
36 }

The add_a_line() function first checks that none of the lines so far
conflict (have the same digit in the same column), if it passes and the
number of lines equals the size of the board then the result is printed
and another solution is looked for. Failing that another line is added
and add_a_line() is called.

Here is the function that tells if two lines conflict.

37  sub compare {
38      my ( $a, $b ) = @_;

39      my $ok = 1;

40      my @aa = @{ $permutations[$a] };
41      my @bb = @{ $permutations[$b] };

42      for ( my $x = 0 ; $x < $width_of_board ; $x++ ) {
43          $ok = 0 if $aa[$x] == $bb[$x];
44      }

45      return $ok == 1;
46  }

The p() function is a little utility to convert a list into a string for
display.

47  sub p {
48      my ($x) = @_;

49      my @a = @{ $permutations[$x] };
50      my $y = join( '', @a );

51      return $y;
52  }

Well I have just exposed some pretty crap code to eternal ridicule on
the internet, but there you have it. The code is crap, even non Perl
programmers will be able to point out the deficenties with this code. It
works, even though a 5 x 5 grid took 473 minutes to run. Lets try and
salvage some pride and show version four and see how we managed to speed
things up.

 1  #!/usr/bin/perl -w

 2  use strict;
 3  use warnings;

 4  use Algorithm::Permute;

 5  my $width_of_board = shift;

 6  my @permutations;
 7  my @output;
 8  my %compared;

 9  my $p = new Algorithm::Permute( [ 1 .. $width_of_board ] );

10  while ( my @res = $p->next ) {
11      push @permutations, [@res];
12      push @output, join( '', @res );
13  }
14  my $number_of_permutations = scalar(@permutations);

Lines 1 to 14 are doing pretty much what version one was doing except
that a new list, @output, is being built up to precalculate the output
strings and remove the need for the p() function. A minor speed up but
useful.

15  for ( my $x = 0 ; $x < $number_of_permutations ; $x++ ) {
16      for ( my $y = 0 ; $y < $number_of_permutations ; $y++ ) {
17          my $ok = 1;

18          my @aa = @{ $permutations[$x] };
19          my @bb = @{ $permutations[$y] };

20          for ( my $z = 0 ; $z < $width_of_board ; $z++ ) {
21              if ( $aa[$z] == $bb[$z] ) {
22                  $ok = 0;
23                  last;
24              }
25          }

26          if ( $ok == 1 ) {
27              $compared{"$x:$y"} = 1;
28          }
29      }
30  }

Lines 15 to 30 introduces new code to precalculate the comparisons and
feed the results into a hash. Lines 31 to 33 start the work in the same
way as version one.

31  for ( my $x = 0 ; $x < $number_of_permutations ; $x++ ) {
32      add_a_line($x);
33  }

And now to the improved add_a_line() function. The code has been
improved to only check that the newly added line does not conflict with
any of the existsing lines rather than repeatedly comparing the existing
(valid) lines.

34  sub add_a_line {
35      my @lines = @_;

36      my $size = scalar(@lines);

37      my $ok = 1;

38      if ( $size > 1 ) {
39          for ( my $x = 0 ; $x < ( $size - 1 ) ; $x++ ) {
40              unless ( defined $compared{ $lines[$x] .':'.

$lines[-1] } ) {
41 $ok = 0;
42 last;
43 }
44 }
45 }

46      if ($ok) {
47          if ( $size == $width_of_board ) {
48              print join( ':', map { $output[$_] } @lines ) . 

“\n”;
49 }
50 else {
51 for ( my $x = 0 ; $x < $number_of_permutations ;
$x++ ) {
52 add_a_line( @lines, $x );
53 }
54 }
55 }
56 }

These changes took us down from 473 minutes to just 12. The elimination
of unnessessary comparisons in add_a_line() helped as did the
precalculation of those comparisons. There are lessons to be learnt
here, write decent code and cache repetetive comparisons. There are no
great tricks, just that bad code can cost you dearly and simple things
can bring big improvements. So with such a massive improvement how could
we make our code any faster?

Write it in C.

Having learnt the lessons developing the code in Perl I am not going to
start the whole thing over in C. Using version four I used the
precalculation phase of the Perl scripts to write out a C header file
with data structures that would be useful for the C program.

 1  #define WIDTH_OF_BOARD 5
 2  #define NUMBER_OF_PERMUTATIONS 120
 3  char *output_strings[] = {
 4      "54321",

123 “12345”,
124 };
125 bool compared[NUMBER_OF_PERMUTATIONS][NUMBER_OF_PERMUTATIONS] =
{
126 {false, false, …

245 {false, false, …
246 };
247 int work[WIDTH_OF_BOARD];

This then leaves the C code itself. Lines 1 to 7 includes a load of
useful stuff, infact it is also probably including some quite
unneccessary stuff too, I just cut and paste it from another project.

 1  #include <stdio.h>
 2  #include <stdlib.h>
 3  #include <stdbool.h>
 4  #include <err.h>
 5  #include <string.h>
 6  #include <unistd.h>
 7  #include <sys/types.h>

Line 8 is the header file that Perl precalculated.

 8  #include "Latin.h"

Now the meat. The code is pretty much the same as version four just
adapted to C. No special C tricks, no weird pointer stuff, an almost
line for line translation of the Perl code.

 9  void
10  add_a_row(int row)
11  {
12      bool            is_ok;
13      int             x,y;

14      if (row == WIDTH_OF_BOARD) {
15          for (x = 0; x < WIDTH_OF_BOARD; x++) {
16              if (x == 0) {
17                  printf("%s", output_strings[work[x]]);
18              } else {
19                  printf(":%s", output_strings[work[x]]);
20              }
21          }
22          puts("");
23      } else {
24          for (x = 0; x < NUMBER_OF_PERMUTATIONS; x++) {
25              work[row] = x;

26              is_ok = true;
27              if (row != 0) {
28                  for( y = 0; y < row; y++ ) {
29                      if(compared[work[row]][work[y]] == false) {
30                          is_ok = false;
31                          break;
32                      }
33                  }
34              }
35              if (is_ok == true) {
36                  add_a_row(row + 1);
37              }
38          }
39      }
40  }

41  int
42  main(int argc, char *argv[])
43  {
44      add_a_row(0);
45  }

And the C version ran in 5.5 seconds. In fact the 5.5 seconds includes
the Perl program that does all the precalculation to write the Latin.h
header file, the compiling of the C source and finally the running of
the program itself. So we have not cheated by doing some work outside
the timings.

Just think of it, 12 minutes down to 5.5 seconds without having to write
any incomprehensible C code. Because we all know that C code is
completely incomprehensible with it doing all that weird pointer stuff
all the time.

Now the Perl code could be improved, there are tricks that could be
pulled out of the bag to trim something off the 12 minutes. Perhaps
another language would be faster? But how far could you close the gap
from 12 minutes to 5.5 seconds?

Just to up the ante I added -fast -mcpu=7450 to the compiler (gcc
optimized for speed on an G4 Macintosh) and ran it again.

[Latin]$ time ./c_version.sh 5 > x5

real 0m3.986s
user 0m2.810s
sys 0m0.540s

Another 30% performance improvement without changing any code.

Lets review the languages we have used and their advantages. C is very
fast without any stupid tricks. C will give you better control over the
amount of memory you use (the Perl code eats up massive amounts of
memory in comparison, the 9 x 9 grid threw an out of memory error on my
1Gb machine).

It is much easier to develop in Perl. Any error message you get is
likely to at least give you a clue as to what the problem might be. C
programmers have to put up with the likes of ‘Bus error’ or
‘Segmentation fault’, which is why C programmers are grouches. Perl also
allows you to significantly improve your code without major rewrites.
There is a module called Memoize that can wrap a function and cache the
calls all by adding two extra lines to your code, the same is true for
most scripting languages.

So what am I recommending here, write all your programs in C? No. Write
all your programs in Perl? No. Write them in your favourite scripting
language to refine the code and then translate it into C if the
performance falls short of your requirements. Even if you intend to
write it in C all along hacking the code in Perl first allows you to
play with the algorithm without having to worry about memory allocation
and other such C style house keeping. Good code is good code in any
language.

If you really really want that performance boost then take the following
advice very seriously - “Write it in C”.

Do you have any preferred tutorials on wrapping Ruby around C libraries?

Peter H. schrieb:

(Example of Perl and C Code)

Peter, is there any chance you could test your program with Ruby Inline?

http://rubyforge.org/projects/rubyinline

I’m on Windows, so I can’t use Ruby Inline (+1 for MinGW btw :slight_smile:

Regards,
Pit

It might be interesting to see how Java fares too - another route
again.

Pete

On 7/26/06, [email protected] [email protected] wrote:

Peter H. gave a very good article about prototyping in a scripting
language, and then re-coding in c:

snip

If you really really want that performance boost then take the following
advice very seriously - “Write it in C”.

I totally agree that with the current state of the art, this is the
right approach.

Sorry, I just couldn’t resist - but maybe you should code Java instead -
http://kano.net/javabench/ :wink:

Peter H. gave a very good article about prototyping in a scripting
language, and then re-coding in c:

snip

If you really really want that performance boost then take the following
advice very seriously - “Write it in C”.

I totally agree that with the current state of the art, this is the
right approach.

Maybe it doesn’t need saying, but I’m going to… in the vasy majority
of applications, almost all of their run time is a tiny wee small
fraction of the code. This is the part that I would write in c (or c++).
The vast majority of the code (and it’s not there just for fun, it’s
still completely important to the application) will use a vanishingly
small fraction of processor time. This is the bit that I would probably
leave in Ruby.

People talk about the 80:20 principle, but in my experience it’s much
more like 99:1 for applications. 99% of the code uses 1% of the run
time. 1% of the code consumes 99% of the run time. That could be the
signal processing and graphics heavy applications that I have
experienced though.

Thanks for the comparison, it was great. And thanks for the very nice
pre-generation of look up tables in perl idea. Nice.

Cheers,
Benjohn

On 7/26/06, Tomasz W. [email protected] wrote:

I totally agree that with the current state of the art, this is the
right approach.

Sorry, I just couldn’t resist - but maybe you should code Java instead -
http://kano.net/javabench/ :wink:

Of course not, but it might be of intereset that there are other
programming languages out there
Ada, ObjectiveC, Scheme, OCAML, Huskell you name it.
That said I agree that one can write code beautifully in C (see GTK for
example).
I do not think that people are treated bad when they say

“Hmmm, maybe you should know that this kind of performance is not
possible in Ruby or even slightly faster interpreted languages, and that
you
should consider writing part of it in C, it is not so difficult, have a
look
here or there”

as opposed to those who write

“Write it in C if you want speed”

That kind of post never gets accepted well and I have the feeling that
when
the speed issue comes up there is a certain tendence to reply like that.
Otoh I agree that the speed issue comes up much too often, but I suggest
instead of
replying “Write it in C if you want speed”, one can ignore the post or
point to older posts.

Just my 0.02â?¬.

Cheers
Robert


Deux choses sont infinies : l’univers et la bêtise humaine ; en ce qui
concerne l’univers, je n’en ai pas acquis la certitude absolue.

  • Albert Einstein

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:47:13 +0900, Peter H. wrote:

In this post I want to clear some things up and provide benchmarks as to
why you should take “Write it in C” seriously.

This is a great post, and should at least be posted to a blog somewhere
so
the masses who don’t know about USENET can still find it on Google!

Jay

Jay L. wrote:

Jay

I may well put it in my web site, along with all the source code. Google
and Yahoo hit it enough.

Robert D. wrote:

Tact has never been one of my strong points. Your phrasing was much
nicer I will agree. The things that has been bugging me with this whole
performance thing is that I am sure that many people do not realise just
how fast a program written in C can run. The people who seem to take
offence at being told to write their code in C seem to have no
significant experience in using C. What also seems to happen is that
after saying that performance is their number 1 absolute top priority
they start to back peddle saying how hard C code is to develop. Yes is
it harder to work with than a scripting language, it is all the rope you
need to hang yourself with but you can write some blindingly fast code
if you are prepared to put in the effort. Wasn’t that what they said was
their number 1 absolute top priority?

I’ll lob a couple of grenades and then duck for cover.

  • Write it in C is as valid as write it in Java (as someone else
    mentioned).
    Java is at least as fast as C for most algorithms. On the JRuby project,
    when we need to clone a C extension or library from Ruby, we typically
    write
    it first in Ruby (to get something running quickly) and then reimplement
    it
    in Java (for performance). The sad truth beyond the numbers and
    quantitative
    comparisons is that a dynamic typed language with no primitives is
    almost
    certainly going to be slower than staticly typed with with
    everything-is-an-object. Toss out your favorite super-fast dyntyped
    language
    if you will…I’m speaking in generalities.
  • Write it in C is also as dangerous (in the grand scheme of things) as
    write it in Java, because it has the potential to tie you to a specific
    platform. For better or for worse, there’s a lot of Windows machines out
    there, and practically none of them have compilers. That means anything
    you
    write in C will have to be pre-built for those platforms, or users are
    SOL.
    Java suffers from the same fate…a Java VM is required…but if you’re
    running JRuby you probably have already made that plunge. There’s a
    balance
    to be struck between tying yourself to fast native code or accepting
    slow
    interpreted code. You pay a very specific price either way.

All this said, there’s truth to the idea that we shouldn’t have to
write
platform-level code to get reasonable performance, and every effort
should
be made to improve the speed of Ruby code as near as possible to that of
the
underlying platform code. On JRuby, we are working on various compiler
designs to turn Ruby code directly into Java bytecodes and methods,
cutting
out the overhead of node-by-node interpretation. Early returns show as
high
as 65% gains for some algorithms. We’re also looking at modifications to
the
parsing process to structure the AST in ways that makes it easier to
interpret. We in particular have to compete with a vast world of Java
code
and Java coders, and although we’ll never match the performance of raw
Java
we endeavor to get as close as possible.

On Jul 26, 2006, at 8:57 AM, Charles O Nutter wrote:

  • Write it in C is as valid as write it in Java (as someone else
    mentioned).
    Java is at least as fast as C for most algorithms.

I’m Java Certified and I’ve been hearing people say this for years,
but I just haven’t experienced this myself. You guys must develop on
much faster boxes than my MacBook Pro. :wink:

James Edward G. II

Charles O Nutter wrote:

I’ll lob a couple of grenades and then duck for cover.

  • Write it in C is as valid as write it in Java (as someone else
    mentioned).
    Java is at least as fast as C for most algorithms.

As someone who is paid to program in Java I very seriously doubt this.
However I will write a Java version of the code and time it. It should
be interesting to say the least.

All this said, there’s truth to the idea that we shouldn’t have to
write
platform-level code to get reasonable performance, and every effort
should
be made to improve the speed of Ruby code as near as possible to that
of the
underlying platform code.
We are talking about two different things here. I was talking about
performance as being the number 1 absolute top priority, you are talking
about ‘reasonable performance’. As far as I am concerned for those
scripts that I don’t convert to C Perl, Ruby and Python are fast enough.
Other people think that they are not, they seem to expect the sort of
performance C gives when they write things in a scripting language. I
think that they are barking.

On 7/26/06, Peter H. [email protected] wrote:

Jay L. wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:47:13 +0900, Peter H. wrote:

In this post I want to clear some things up and provide benchmarks as to
why you should take “Write it in C” seriously.

Something else to consider is the ease with which Ruby extensions can
be written in C. The first time I tried I has something running in 20
minutes.

Though if I was going to choose a (single) language for raw
performance I’d try to go with Pascal or Ada.

Les

Hi Peter!

Whenever the question of performance comes up with scripting
languages
such as Ruby, Perl or Python there will be people whose
response can be
summarised as “Write it in C”. I am one such person. Some people take
offence at this and label us trolls or heretics of the true
programming
language (take your pick).

The last (and only) time I called someone a troll for saying
‘Write it C’ it was in response to a rails related question.
Further the OP asked for configuration items and such, but maybe
that’s a whole other storry. (and of course you can write
C Extensions for rails… yeah, yadda, yadda :slight_smile: )

…snip 52 lines Perl, some hundred lines C …

sys 0m7.101s

[Latin]$ time ./c_version.sh 5

real 0m5.519s
user 0m4.585s
sys 0m0.691s

Just to show the beauty of ruby:

require ‘rubygems’
require ‘permutation’
require ‘set’

$size = (ARGV.shift || 5).to_i

$perms = Permutation.new($size).map{|p| p.value}
$out = $perms.map{|p| p.map{|v| v+1}.join}
$filter = $perms.map do |p|
s = SortedSet.new
$perms.each_with_index do |o, i|
o.each_with_index {|v, j| s.add(i) if p[j] == v}
end && s.to_a
end

$latins = []
def search lines, possibs
return $latins << lines if lines.size == $size
possibs.each do |p|
search lines + [p], (possibs -
$filter[p]).subtract(lines.last.to_i…p)
end
end

search [], SortedSet[*(0…$perms.size)]

$latins.each do |latin|
$perms.each do |perm|
perm.each{|p| puts $out[latin[p]]}
puts
end
end

(does someone has a nicer/even faster version?)

would you please run that on your machine?
perhaps you have to do a “gem install permutation”
(no I don’t think it’s faster than your C code, but
it should beat the perl version)

If you really really want that performance boost then take
the following
advice very seriously - “Write it in C”.

Agreed, 100%, for those who want speed, speed and nothing
else there is hardly a better way.

thanks

Simon

Peter H. wrote:

We are talking about two different things here. I was talking about
performance as being the number 1 absolute top priority, you are talking
about ‘reasonable performance’. As far as I am concerned for those
scripts that I don’t convert to C Perl, Ruby and Python are fast enough.
Other people think that they are not, they seem to expect the sort of
performance C gives when they write things in a scripting language. I
think that they are barking.

I quite agree with this. To Nutter’s point, one can make one’s own
choice between C and Java once the decision has been made to write
platform-level code. But most code, perhaps nearly all code, should stay
in dyntyped script, in order to optimize the development/runtime
cost-balance. I think you can get tremendous benefits from factoring
code cleverly enough to keep the native-code components as small as
possible. And this is often a nontrivial exercise because it depends on
a good understanding of where performance costs come from in any
particular program.

To the point about Java: as I mentioned upthread, working-set size is
often the key limiting factor in Ruby performance. On a large and busy
server (which is my target environment most of the time), Java can be a
very inappropriate choice for the same reason!

On 7/26/06, James Edward G. II [email protected] wrote:

On Jul 26, 2006, at 8:57 AM, Charles O Nutter wrote:

  • Write it in C is as valid as write it in Java (as someone else
    mentioned).
    Java is at least as fast as C for most algorithms.

I’m Java Certified and I’ve been hearing people say this for years,
but I just haven’t experienced this myself. You guys must develop on
much faster boxes than my MacBook Pro. :wink:

Well la-dee-dah! Seriously though, there’s a volume of tests and
benchmarks
(for what they’re worth) that show this to be true, and for
memory-intensive
situations Java almost always wins because lazy memory management allows
work to get done first, faster. Granted, Java’s abstractions make it
easier
to write bad code…but that’s true of every language, including C.

  • Charles Oliver N., CERTIFIED Java Developer

On 7/26/06, Peter H. [email protected] wrote:

be interesting to say the least.
Doubt all you like.

scripts that I don’t convert to C Perl, Ruby and Python are fast enough.
Other people think that they are not, they seem to expect the sort of
performance C gives when they write things in a scripting language. I
think that they are barking.

They may be hoping for the impossible, but that doesn’t mean they
shouldn’t
hope and that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be frustrated when the stock
answer is “write it in C”. The fact that Ruby and other dynamic
languages
are not as fast as compiled C is not the language’s fault or the user’s
fault…it’s an implementation flaw. It certainly may be a flaw that
can’t
be fixed, a problem impossible to solve, but there’s nothing about a
language’s design that should necessitate it being slower than any other
language. Perhaps we haven’t found the right way to implement these
languages, or perhaps some of us have and others just aren’t there yet.
Either way, it’s not the language that’s eventually the problem…it’s
simply the distance from what the underlying platform wants to run
that’s an
issue. C is, as they put it, closer to “bare metal”, but only because C
is
little more than a set of macros on top of assembly code. If the
underlying
processor ran YARV bytecodes, I doubt Ruby performance would be a
concern.

Charles O Nutter wrote:

  • Charles Oliver N., CERTIFIED Java Developer

I dont doubt for simple applications and algorithms java is nearly as
fast as C if not equivalent. Though for larger java projects such as
Eclipse, i’ve had a horrible time of it being slow and cumbersome on the
system, and Visual Studio will run fine and be far more responsive.
I dont really know why that is it could be as simple as some bad code in
the java gui layer that Eclipse is using.

On 7/26/06, Jay L. [email protected] wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:47:13 +0900, Peter H. wrote:

In this post I want to clear some things up and provide benchmarks as to
why you should take “Write it in C” seriously.

This is a great post, and should at least be posted to a blog somewhere so
the masses who don’t know about USENET can still find it on Google!

well, I didn’t post the original post (though I did link to it). I
did post my take
on it. At it’s core: write it in Ruby and if it’s too slow, profile
it and rewrite the
slow parts (in C if need be). Rewriting the whole app in C when Ruby
makes
cohabitating with C (or C++ or Objective C) so easy just seems
pointless.

My post is at