You have one other choice too Joe…
Hire someone to make the game for you now—maybe he comes
cheap because you share ownership—and you learn while you both do…
That lets you start—let’s your idea get legs…and you learn too…
cj:)
You know Joe…
Calm down #1----you are asking for people’s help–they are actually
offering
good advice—but you are not seeing it…
Let me lay it out…
Programming takes work–to learn how the tools work, how the languages
work,
what kinds of models and data structures work—all that stuff…
And you learn that stuff by doing those silly little exercises…lots of
them…do that for a few weeks…then pick a SMALL real problem and
solve
it yourself—and you’ll rediscover how much you Don’t know…
Then you go figure that out, and pick another one…
And you do that for years—and you learn to build games.
OK?
IF, on the other hand, you think you are special and it should be easier
for
you or that people here owe you their time to guide you…then either:
A) YOU REALLY DO NEED SERIOUS HELP (but not the kind you think)
or
B) You can hire people to help you…find someone to tutor you—for
money
or some other coin you can agree on…
but…
Don’t be such a butt-head about it—people are telling you straight,
problem is you just don’t like the answers…
tough. Welcome to life.
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:35:26 +0900, Joe W.
[email protected] wrote:
Alls I want is to make a decent graphic game, with decent gameplay,
and atleast some fun.
Assuming you mean 3d graphics, that’s actually about the hardest types
of programming projects to do. It’s not only an issue of basic
programming, but you’ll need to worry about advanced topics like
concurrency, as well as needing knowledge of a wide range of other
disciplines like:
- computational geometry for rendering and world simulation
- signal processing for visual effects and audio
- drawing and design skills for your 2d visual assets
(half of graphics is art direction) - 3d modeling for your 3d assets
There are, thankfully, libraries to handle much of the coding aspects
of these, but you’ll still need to understand the principles to be able
to use the libraries effectively.
At this rate, none of thats going ot happen soon. Soon I’m just going to take
the hard road and directly try to learn C++. But for all intents and
purposes, learning Ruby first would be an easier path.
Starting from scratch, it takes most people about ten years to become a
solid programmer. The best way to approach the process is to get more
or
less comfortable in one programming language/environment, and then learn
several more which are as different as possible from each other. Find
modest, but fun, projects to do to keep you motivated: things that you
want or need to do, write programs to do them for you.
I would not recommend C++ as a first language, though you will have
to learn it eventually. There are a lot of side issues in it that get
in the way of just programming, and it’s a truly massive language. I
picked up C++ 15 years ago, and I’m still finding new, weird features
in the language today.
The original question was how would I get started making a game if I
had no prior coding experiance?. And I haven’t received much on that subject.
Use a series of simpler projects to build your skills to the point
where you can tackle the “real” game. That was one of the reasons the
text
adventure was suggested – it’ll build a lot of the skills you’ll need
to write the core game logic for the 3d game.
My first projects involved taking example programs and incrementally
modifying them to do new things. You may have success doing something
similar (the source code for many libraries comes with example
programs).
-mental
On Jul 13, 2007, at 8:35 PM, Joe W. wrote:
I have no interest in making a Text
Adventure, because, for one thing, they aren’t any fun! They have
no or
bad graphics, no customizability, no nothing!
Every time you say that a smurf dies in some MUD. 
I must be getting very old.
James Edward G. II
-----Original Message-----
Guide lost me at about chapter 3. The best thing I’v done
recommendation
better than me.
vague, or kick me in the ass and tell me to do something else.-s
–
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
The problem is that you’re asking for something impossible.
That’s made worse by the fact that no matter how many arguments are
presented to you, you refuse to see it as such.
Maybe - and I’m just inviting you to do this, not telling you to do this
you might want to consider the possibility that the people you received
advice from were not bad teachers, but that you are a bad student.
Felix
On 7/13/07, Joe W. [email protected] wrote:
And I can’t say that any
person on this thread was actually a “teacher” because nobody taught me
anything. They told me to learn things. A teacher doesn’t say Go buy
this book and read it, then write 2+5
Those who expect to be "taught’, in my opinion, will never learn.
Felix W. wrote:
-----Original Message-----
Guide lost me at about chapter 3. The best thing I’v done
recommendation
better than me.
vague, or kick me in the ass and tell me to do something else.-s
–
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.The problem is that you’re asking for something impossible.
That’s made worse by the fact that no matter how many arguments are
presented to you, you refuse to see it as such.Maybe - and I’m just inviting you to do this, not telling you to do this
you might want to consider the possibility that the people you received
advice from were not bad teachers, but that you are a bad student.Felix
Your right. I don’t see any good advice. Because people aren’t giving me
advice. They are telling me to code Hello World for years and years.
Problem is, how does that help? It doesn’t. It doesn’t code in a weapon,
it doesn’t make a boat move, it doesn’t do anything at all. It makes
your computer re-print Hello World. I’v done the Hello World thing 60
times. I counted. And guess what? Im nowhere closer to making a game.
And as for the Stool building to House building, there’s a great
difference between building stools and building houses. I built several
stools, chairs, tables, chests, and boxes. Just wood, nails, hammer, and
finish. And for some things, hinges, locks, and cushions. But houses
have electric things to install, tiling, carpet, cieling fans, etc to
put in. The methods are completely different. And I can’t say that any
person on this thread was actually a “teacher” because nobody taught me
anything. They told me to learn things. A teacher doesn’t say Go buy
this book and read it, then write 2+5
100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
times and you will learn how to multiply. A teacher would explain how
you get the answer to 2+5. Then the teacher would explain how you apply
the same principles to multiplying, then you would learn algebra,
physics, calculus, etc. And how do you know Rome wasn’t built in a day?
For all you know, it could have been built in 10 seconds flat. No one
can prove anything. It’s a fact.
On Jul 13, 2007, at 9:01 PM, Joe W. wrote:
We need to get you past this Google fear my friend. Google python
were agravating, annoying, useless, telling me what I did wrong,–
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Kid, you’re going to have a hard time finding better help.
There is no magic that will make you a programmer over night.
The Ruby-Talk list is one of the most beginner friendly places you
will find.
Most others will tell you RTFM.
If you can manage some Ruby scripting, you’ll be able to transfer the
skills you learn to other scripting languages.
There are more than a few game-making engines out there that take
most of the hard programming out of the way and leave you with
scripting and design.
But with your attitude, you will not get much.
We are laying it on you straight.
Graphical games, particularly the 3D variety are pretty complex
programs that would take a single person years to develop.
Lots of programmers were (and are) gamers and that’s often how they
got into programming.
You can be a game designer too. If you have lots of good ideas
planned out, then get together with a programmer and a graphics
person. The age of the one-man game company is pretty far gone. The
last classic I know of that was a one man endeavor RPG was Ultima.
More than that takes more people.
From: “Joe W.” [email protected]
your useless advice is getting me nowhere. Because I don’t understand
this stuff.
Joe,
Did you get my post yesterday about the Ruby Gosu 2D game library?
(Note to ruby-talk folk: it was mail count #259234 … only it doesn’t
seem
to exist in the ruby-talk archive… Strange.)
I’ll repost it here in case it didn’t make it to the list somehow:
> Hey yall experienced coders and programmer dudes. I wanna make an MMORPG
> type game, but I have no programming experiance whatsoever. Someone told
> me this was the best language to start learning with. So here I am,
> confused about everything except blog making because of that "15 minute"
> tutorial which turned out to take an hour+ for me. So I need someone to
> tell me how to get started making even a basic game. Like 2d, horrible
> graphics, the worst they can get. Like taking a game for 4 year olds,
> then taking a step back. So simple, not even I want to play it. How
> would one get started making any kind of game? And if anyone could
> supply me with information for my sub-childrens game, that be nice too.
One 2D game library with Ruby bindings is gosu:
http://code.google.com/p/gosu/
Here's a post from Florian G. about a game written in Ruby / Gosu,
running on Win32 / OS X / Linux:
http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/187832
Screenshot: http://flgr.0x42.net/gdc72h-05/final.jpg
Also, here are some game-related ruby quizzes that might be apropos:
http://www.rubyquiz.com/quiz80.html Dungeon Generation
Two different solutions were submitted for doing 2D text based
dungeon generation.
http://www.rubyquiz.com/quiz49.html Lisp Game
Nineteen solutions were submitted for implementing a text adventure
game in ruby. (Porting a Lisp game to Ruby.)
You will be able to look at the ruby source code for all of the above.
Hope this helps,
Bill
Note: I was a professional game developer from 1989 to 1998 and I’ve
done
2D games and 3D games on several platforms.
I have not personally used the Gosu library, but it looks nice.
For example, here is a tutorial/example page:
http://code.google.com/p/gosu/wiki/RubyTutorial
Joe, if you want to see two pirates shooting at each other, and you have
the graphics already, the examples on that tutorial page should pretty
much
get you there. With sounds, even.
Hope this helps,
Bill
Joe, don’t be impatient and ignorant–it’s just annoying to read.
You are on a ruby language help forum.
these people know what they are talking about.
what is it about your “wisdom” that makes you think you are right, and
they are wrong. I suspect you’re what 18-22? maybe younger?
Go do the hello worlds. do 100 other little things to learn how the
language
works…
What you are saying is “I want to Write the best work of literature in a
Serbo-Croation, a language I don’t know” … people are saying go learn
the
language, go use it for a while…and you are saying “You people are
stupid
because you can’t tell me how to write in another language without
having to
spend time doing work to become proficient”
(that thing in the matrix–about learning to fly helicopters—that was
in a
sim man—it wasn’t real…hello…)
GUESS WHAT JOE—IT’S WORK…
So----you can decide:
A) We dumb-arse’s don’t know what we’re talking about, and you in your
wisdom know better…and move on.
B) You can decide that you really would rather go back to using wood.
C) You can go back to playing and stop having to possible think or work
OR
D) BUCKLE DOWN, DO THE WORK, LEARN THE PROCESS…
How many books about game design have you even skimmed? or on the net?
How about classes for Game design?
I appreciate the comic relief you’ve provided
I am amused by your angst that life is so hard on you
My pity wells up that the world is so unfair that one so wise as you
can’t
know all things in an instant…we poor fools had to go learn the “hard
way”…I know that’s passe’ with your ilk, but—tough dude.
Get real
In message [email protected], Joe
Wiltrout writes:
I will use my google skills now, TO FIND BETTER HELP. All of these tips
were agravating, annoying, useless, telling me what I did wrong, telling
me to do stupid stuff like that hellish Hello World crap, or all of the
above. Not to mention, im going straight to dam C++. I have a better
chance if I tackle the lion with my sword and shield rather than wait
until the lion is hungry and attack it with the knoledge how to kill a
baby lion. If you don’t get the anology, your not as smart as you think
you are.
It’s a very bad analogy for the reality. You’re telling people who
regularly
take out elephants with combat knives how to hunt.
I think the best analogy would be that, since you’re finding crawling
unacceptably slow, you’ve decided to go straight to the skateboard.
Good
luck with that.
-s
In message [email protected], Joe
Wiltrout writes:
Your right. I don’t see any good advice. Because people aren’t giving me
advice. They are telling me to code Hello World for years and years.
No, they aren’t. They’re telling you to start with simple stuff and
build to big stuff.
Problem is, how does that help? It doesn’t.
How would you know? You haven’t tried it.
It doesn’t code in a weapon,
it doesn’t make a boat move, it doesn’t do anything at all. It makes
your computer re-print Hello World. I’v done the Hello World thing 60
times. I counted. And guess what? Im nowhere closer to making a game.
Maybe instead of doing the exact same thing 60 times, you should be
making changes and trying to understand them.
And as for the Stool building to House building, there’s a great
difference between building stools and building houses. I built several
stools, chairs, tables, chests, and boxes. Just wood, nails, hammer, and
finish. And for some things, hinges, locks, and cushions. But houses
have electric things to install, tiling, carpet, cieling fans, etc to
put in. The methods are completely different.
Yes, but if you haven’t learned the basic components and skills, you
can’t even BEGIN to do the rest of the house stuff; you’ll get to the
point of needing two pieces of wood to stick together, and you’ll have
no clue how to make it work or match your plan.
And I can’t say that any
person on this thread was actually a “teacher” because nobody taught me
anything. They told me to learn things. A teacher doesn’t say Go buy
this book and read it, then write 2+5
100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
times and you will learn how to multiply. A teacher would explain how
you get the answer to 2+5.
Yup. But since you’re not offering enough money to buy days of our
time,
we’re offering to coach you, rather than teaching you.
Then the teacher would explain how you apply
the same principles to multiplying, then you would learn algebra,
physics, calculus, etc. And how do you know Rome wasn’t built in a day?
For all you know, it could have been built in 10 seconds flat. No one
can prove anything. It’s a fact.
Well, actually, we have excellent information on how Rome was built.
Learn
about archeology. 
Seriously, I’ve seen people who are off the top ends of any known test
of
“intelligence” learn to program, and they had to do it the same way
we’re
suggesting. It’s just part of how learning happens; until you
understand
the little bits, you can’t do a good job putting them together.
-s
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 11:27:06 +0900, Joe W.
[email protected] wrote:
And how do you know Rome wasn’t built in a day? For all you know, it could
have been built in 10 seconds flat. No one can prove anything. It’s a fact.
If you can’t (at least informally) prove a logical proposition, you’ve
got no hope as a programmer.
-mental
In message 46440c255524a060ec6840278884d168@localhost, MenTaLguY
writes:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 11:27:06 +0900, Joe W. [email protected] wrote:
And how do you know Rome wasn’t built in a day? For all you know, it could
have been built in 10 seconds flat. No one can prove anything. It’s a fact.
If you can’t (at least informally) prove a logical proposition, you’ve
got no hope as a programmer.
Strictly speaking, our ability to prove the claim that Rome wasn’t built
in
a day is contingent on certain assumptions about the consistency of
physical
laws, etcetera, etcetera.
Sadly, in this fallen world, we must make a number of assumptions. That
is,
assuming that there’s a world. And assuming that we want to reach
conclusions.
No one has ever proven to my satisfaction that we ought to reach
conclusions.
-s
On 7/13/07, Joe W. [email protected] wrote:
Over these last two days, some of the best programmers I know have
given you some great advice. I am 15, I know what it is like to want
to learn how to make a game in a day. let me tell you, It’s not
possible. You need to learn how to program first. The tutorials may
all start with Hello, World, but then you aren’t bothering to finish
one. They get complex, they teach you the structures you need to know
eventually. But you must start small. One you know those basic
theories, you can move on to more complex game theories. After that
you can start 3d programming. It will take you years. C++ will be
just as bad, it’s even lower level. Work through Pine’s book, or
_why’s. Then you can try making a text adventure. You might know
enough for that. Then you can start learning mroe advanced things,
like ruby-gosu or SDL. It will take time, it will be tedious, it will
suck. You are going to have to deal with it.
Want help writing a MMORPG. You will need a protocol. Creating one
is pretty easy with ragel (NameBright - Coming Soon,
a state machine compiler) and EventMachine
(http://rubyforge.org/projects/eventmachine, an evented socket
server). You will need a graphics engine (http://www.libsdl.org/,
SDL). Probably a database (http://www.postgresql.org/) and a ton of
code, possibly in multiple languages (Ruby, C, Lua). Once you
understand what each of these components does, and why you might need
them, and how they work, you can move on to a real game.
Good Luck. If you have a real code-based question, don’t hesitate to
ask the list. But google around first.
On 7/13/07, Craig J. [email protected] wrote:
Joe, don’t be impatient and ignorant–it’s just annoying to read.
You are on a ruby language help forum.
these people know what they are talking about.what is it about your “wisdom” that makes you think you are right, and
they are wrong. I suspect you’re what 18-22? maybe younger?
Age doesn’t mean anything, I generally dislike when people bring it up
as a measure of skill or wisdom. For the record, I am 21, and I look
up to a few well known Rubyists that are 16-18yrs old.
Joe is actually just acting like a classic jerk, it has nothing to do
with age.
In message
[email protected], “Gregory
Brown” write
s:
Age doesn’t mean anything, I generally dislike when people bring it up
as a measure of skill or wisdom. For the record, I am 21, and I look
up to a few well known Rubyists that are 16-18yrs old.
Joe is actually just acting like a classic jerk, it has nothing to do with age.
Age isn’t proof of anything, but the correlation is strong enough to be
noticable. I agree, though, that I know people in their thirties and
forties
who are just like that.
-s
On 7/13/07, Peter S. [email protected] wrote:
who are just like that.
Oh give me a break. Generalizations like that are similar to the ones
that say we should do ethnic profiling at airports.
In message
[email protected], “Gregory
Brown” write
s:
Oh give me a break. Generalizations like that are similar to the ones
that say we should do ethnic profiling at airports.
And if Hitler hadn’t practiced gun control, there wouldn’t have been so
many abortions in Nazi Germany!
-s
(will escalate for food)
On 7/13/07, Bill K. [email protected] wrote:
Although I agree in general and in principle with everything
you’ve said above, I wondered from Joe’s frustrated comments
that he might benefit from actually seeing visual results on
screen ASAP.
I’m totally out of the loop with the gaming community, but you’re
probably right on this. Instead of trying to go from the ground up, I
wonder if a good approach would be to find a highly scriptable game
with a friendly modding community.
This seems to me like it’d let someone get their feet wet without
knowing a ton of theory, and work with powerful engines. I’ve never
actually built non-trivial mods before though, so I’m not sure if
that’s good advice or not.