I think you are in wrong group. This is the one for masochists:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp/topics
On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Steve S. <
We all know how software engineering is, often we overestimate the
amount of effort needed to complete a still abstract task. That’s why
agility prays fast, simple iterations, say no, cut the bloat. In the
case of Rails, it’s really more passion than deadlines involved, not
to mention it is a collaborative remote effort from people around the
world, the process will be kind of chaotic, in the good sense.
Now, I’m not advocating the approach the core-team uses, sometimes
they go over the edge with their arrogancy, although this is changing
as more people get into the ‘elite’ sphere (i.e getting more diverse),
but I do think that this is a direct consequence of all the stupidity
that you often see around a highly-hyped topic such as Rails and other
IT topics. It is like selecting “friends”. There are just too many
people that want fast / magical results or nerds that love to troll.
Marcelo.
Ops, I meant underestimate*
Cheers,
Marcelo.
On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Marcelo de Moraes S.
On Jul 23, 1:47 pm, Greg D. [email protected] wrote:
Truth hurts.
So does unnecessary rudeness.
Don’t see any patches from you on the tracker by the way…
–
miles
I agree with Ryan.
We all work in software, we understand that fixed timeframe’s don’t
exist, and when they do we end up with Vista type scenarios.
To the core team, take your time, get things right…
Guys.
The name-calling, comparing of e-penises and general abusiveness stops
now.
You are mature members of the Ruby community and I would expect you to
act that way. What ever happened to MINASWAN (Matz Is Nice Always So We
Are Nice)? I’d expect this kind of behaviour from a PHP mailing list.
I respect the fact that you’ve been told that the release is "Any Time
Soon"™ and "Real Soon Now, Seriously!"™, but things come up that
stop the release from happening and postpone it. If you want to know
what’s holding up this release, check out the Rails lighthouse and the
Bundler tracker. To the best of my knowledge, there will not be a Rails
release candidate released until there is a Bundler release candidate.
This is purely speculation on my part, but it makes perfect sense to me,
and hopefully to you.
We’ve all been waiting a while for this release to come out. But what is
stopping you from using it right now? What makes the label of “release
candidate” so much more appealing when the difference between it and
right now could be 1 single documentation commit? There is absolutely
nothing stopping you from using it.
So I encourage all of you to:
- Co-operate and act like respectable members of the community like you
all really are, not shit-flinging monkeys.
and - Try porting over one of your applications this weekend to Rails 3.
It’s really not that difficult.
I have a friend, Chris Darroch, who’s helping me port rboard
GitHub - radar/rboard: A fully featured forum system compatible with Rails 2.3 to Rails 3. Check out the progress on the
rails3 branch. As far as I know, we haven’t ran into a single Rails bug.
All of our problems are because of something we’ve done or because we
needed to use a newer version of a plugin (named_scope instead of just
scope, for example).
If you want Rails 3 to be the best it can be, you can help by doing this
one small thing. Port your application and see if there’s any bugs with
it and if they are, report them. I would hope the core team acts in a
better attitude than seen in this thread (but it’s understandable, given
the ungratefulness witnessed) and help you to help us help you.
Enough fighting. I don’t want to be a part of a community where people
fight over something so… irrelevant. We are the best community on
the web. Let’s not tarnish that reputation by repeating the actions of
this thread.
Greg,
You have been around as long or longer than I have. I would have thought
by now you would have risen above the name-calling and generally
arrogant attitude. To me, you are a fellow senior member of the
community and it greatly saddens me to see somebody of your level acting
in such an immature fashion.
Telling people to leave the community is one sure fire way for them to
do that, and I’m sure deep down you don’t want that to happen because
without people we are without community.
I’d like to thank you for being one of the few people who are not only
building a Rails 3 application, but also one of the few people using
Ruby 1.9.2.
Please consider the weight of your opinions before blasting those who do
not deserve it.
Telling people to leave the community is one sure fire way for them to
do that, and I’m sure deep down you don’t want that to happen because
without people we are without community.
Not everyone is good for community. I won’t be sad a bit if some
leave.
Regards,
Rimantas
On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Ryan B. [email protected] wrote:
You have been around as long or longer than I have.
Cry babies who think the Rails core or community owes them something
can go cry somewhere else. Last I checked this is a place for
technical discussions, not crying over mismanaged business plans.
–
Greg D.
destiney.com | gregdonald.com
Greg D. wrote:
Cry babies who think the Rails core or community owes them something
can go cry somewhere else.
Must you be so arrogant? What gives you the “right” to dictate where
people should go?
Please act like a respectable member.
Rimantas L. wrote:
Must you be so arrogant? What gives you the “right” to dictate where
people should go?Please act like a respectable member.
Care to elaborate why do you have a right to tell others how to act?
I was not telling anybody else how to act. I was simply asking
(indicated by the word “Please” at the start of the sentence) that he
act like a “respectable member”.
Please do not misconstrue what I write.
I was not telling anybody else how to act. I was simply asking
(indicated by the word “Please” at the start of the sentence) that he
act like a “respectable member”.Please do not misconstrue what I write.
Cannot stop from telling (sorry, “asking”) others
what to do?
When why do you misconstrue what others write?
Let’s see:
Greg:
Cry babies who think the Rails core or community owes them something
can go cry somewhere else.
Ryan:
Must you be so arrogant? What gives you the “right” to dictate where
people should go?
Nobody dictated anything. Merely a notion that cry babies CAN go
cry somewhere else.
Regards,
Rimantas
Must you be so arrogant? What gives you the “right” to dictate where
people should go?Please act like a respectable member.
Care to elaborate why do you have a right to tell others how to act?
Regards,
Rimantas
Rimantas L. wrote:
Telling people to leave the community is one sure fire way for them to
do that, and I’m sure deep down you don’t want that to happen because
without people we are without community.Not everyone is good for community. I won’t be sad a bit if some
leave.
So (and I guess it’s my turn to potentially misconstrue) what you’re
saying is that the people who apparently are interested in the future of
Rails should leave?
I think this isn’t a very positive attitude to have. These people who
are interested in Rails will be the people who tell their friends about
it and then they’ll tell their friends about it. These are the people we
should be helping rather than berating. Although I’ve been on
that side of the fence too, but I realised it is the wrong side to be
on.
I understand their whinging is annoying, but acting in some of the ways
we’ve seen in this thread is not appropriate, especially for core
members. We need to work together as a community to make this release
the best release it can be.
If people want to know what’s holding up the release then we should be
pointing them (in a positive fashion, a la Ruby community, not RTFBT
(read the f*cking bug tracker) a la PHP/C community) to the Bundler
tracker: Issues · rubygems/bundler · GitHub which at the very top
lists all the bugs that need to be fixed before a 1.0 release candidate
comes out. I’ll reiterate my opinion: I think that there won’t be a
Rails release candidate without a Bundler release candidate.
As for the people who aren’t good for this community, I so far see two
of them in this entire thread and let me tell you: they aren’t the
people who are whining that Rails 3 isn’t out yet. They’re on the other
side of that particular fence. Maybe they should leave?
Michael S. wrote:
On Monday 26 July 2010, Ryan B. wrote:
As for the people who aren’t good for this community, I so far see
two of them in this entire thread and let me tell you: they aren’t
the people who are whining that Rails 3 isn’t out yet. They’re on
the other side of that particular fence. Maybe they should leave?To get an idea of the impact that certain people leaving would have on
the community, I suggest writing a script to count the number of
contributions to the mailing list that the people involved in this
thread have made over the years.
Again with the e-penis comparisons. Jeez.
I personally couldn’t give a crap (and you shouldn’t either) about how
many contributions they’ve made to the mailing list. The manner in which
they are acting now is not beneficial to the community. If they were
even decent members then they’d be decent all the time. Making x
contributions to the mailing list doesn’t give you the right to act in
the manner seen in this thread.
If you don’t like that somebody is whinging because Rails 3 isn’t out
yet, there are better ways of dealing with it than calling them
crybabies, like not replying at all or, as I said earlier, pointing them
in a professional manner at the relevant issue tracker.
Before you point it out, yes I’ve done this too but I’ve seen the error
of my ways and I’m looking to fix them.
On Monday 26 July 2010, Ryan B. wrote:
As for the people who aren’t good for this community, I so far see
two of them in this entire thread and let me tell you: they aren’t
the people who are whining that Rails 3 isn’t out yet. They’re on
the other side of that particular fence. Maybe they should leave?
To get an idea of the impact that certain people leaving would have on
the community, I suggest writing a script to count the number of
contributions to the mailing list that the people involved in this
thread have made over the years.
Michael
–
Michael S.
mailto:[email protected]
http://www.schuerig.de/michael/
My best guess and a heavy dose of speculation for rails 3 rc1
- Bundler needs to go to rc1 - maybe in a few days with no bugs -
maybe in a couple weeks with lots of bugs.
That may be all - but…if that isn’t the last issue here are next
couple of issues that seem important. - ActiveRecord is about half as fast as it was in rails 2.3.5 - it
won’t remain that way. There is a lot of stuff and junk that has to be
cleared out of it - it will probably be a couple of weeks before jose
valim and possibly wycats turn their attention to a major clean up of
active record to get old stuff out of the way. - Memory leaks…seems to me that you wouldn’t wan’t to deploy a
high traffic site with beta4 and ruby 1.9.2 rc…x… until the memory
issues are taken care of. That might be a ruby 1.9.2 issue…it might
be a rails issue, that is beyond me at the moment.
If I were a betting man, and I’m not, I’d bet we will see rails 3 rc1
within two weeks, and we may see it in the next 4 or 5 days (today
being July 25, 2010)
This is a (somewhat) educated guess after following the “f*cking bug
tracker” (is there just a “bug tracker”?) and reading through what to
me would be the most important issues. (And if a bug is on the “bug
tracker” how does it get bumped up to the “f"cking bug tracer”??)
My best guess at the silence about what is going on? I dunno… Seems
that one blog post or twitter post confirming the above would be all
that it would take now and all that it would have taken a month ago
just to let people who are interested what is going on. Part of the
big push for rails 3 is to expand not only what experts can do with
the system, but what beginners and intermediates can do, and to expand
the total base of users. This has been the stated goal of the core
team over and over. Not communicating is not the way you expand the
total base of users. And while whining about “where is it?” doesn’t
help, how exaclty does it hurt? To paraphrase New Jersey’s
governor…“you must be some of the thinnest skinned people I’ve ever
known”.
If you are on the core team, and you don’t get why people are excited
and confused and a little bit irritated at the lack of
communication…let me restate that, I don’t know how you could not
understand after most of you have given presentation after
presentation about what is coming.
But this is an opportunity. You build a community by
communicating…see that the root of both words is the same? You
build irritation by not communicating.
And those of you who want the noobs to take a ticket and fix it and
send the patch…how long have you been working in rails…a couple
years?? As a member of the ruby and rails community you can’t give
others a couple of years to catch up - and in some cases - surpass
your ruby and rails skill?
And rails itself…it’s no accident that it took this long to re-
factor it. Rails 3 really is a lot of merb, isn’t it? And only because
it was rebuilt with lots of new outside blood will it be as good as
it’s going to be. All the more to look to the future of what will
rails 3 would have been without merb…and what will rails 4 or 5 be
without @whineynoobgenius4 sticking around?
So listen up…@dhh, @wycats, @josevalim, @spastorino etc. You have
a giant opportunity to sooth the massive amount of people who have
become interested, well, largely by your own efforts to attract their
interest. Use that opportunity to communicate and set a foundation for
some of the outside blood that is coming in. For every noob that you
find irritating and will disappear in a couple of months because they
can’t pay their dues, there are 5 others that are irritated and will
pay their dues and may be on the rails 4 core team, if you are will to
communicate. Just a blog post or twitter post a day from one of you
will more than suffice. I’ve noticed a couple of those things in the
last day or two and it really helps.
And @jeremy/@bitsweet - good for you for speaking your mind, but the
FU stuff has a way of coming back to haunt you in things like client
negotiations. That post will be here for eons…and you have no idea
of all of the people who have seen it and taken note. If I had done
that it would keep me up at night.
So yes…everybody remain calm. Our long community nightmare is
almost over. A few days - couple of weeks at the outside, and people
can finish their gems and plugins, and books, and ide’s and projects,
and hosting platforms and…well, you get the idea…
There I’ve said it. I’ll go back to the shadows now…
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Ryan B. [email protected] wrote:
what you’re
saying is that the people who apparently are interested in the future of
Rails should leave?
Cry babies who mismanaged their cough business plans, based on a
never-officially-announced Rails 3 release date, SHOULD go cry
somewhere else. This is a technical group and when someone starts
crying about how Rails 3 isn’t out yet (oh woe is I), I will continue
to remind them to stop crying.
They can build their app in Rails 2 and bring it forward later.
There’s an ebook for the transition:
They can build their app in Rails 3 beta 4 and will already be 99%
ready for the 3.0 release.
Either way, please stop acting like it’s OK for them to continue to cry.
Remember:
–
Greg D.
destiney.com | gregdonald.com
Hey,
Thanks for your attempts to put together a coherent answer for what’s
happening based upon reading our public utterances.
Unfortunately, we don’t always realize that out comments on the bug
tracker, on the Rails core list, on Twitter, etc. cannot easily be put
together to form a coherent understanding of the current status of
things. That said, as you have shown, there is sufficient public
information for an enterprising person to figure out what’s happening.
I say that purely because we don’t always realize that our scattered
communications can come across as silence, and this is something we
should work on improving.
Comments inline.
On Jul 25, 6:23 pm, Oldroy [email protected] wrote:
My best guess and a heavy dose of speculation for rails 3 rc1
- Bundler needs to go to rc1 - maybe in a few days with no bugs -
maybe in a couple weeks with lots of bugs.
We’re down to basically no bugs, but this analysis was basically
correct. Keep an eye out for an announcement soon.
That may be all - but…if that isn’t the last issue here are next
couple of issues that seem important.
2. ActiveRecord is about half as fast as it was in rails 2.3.5 - it
won’t remain that way. There is a lot of stuff and junk that has to be
cleared out of it - it will probably be a couple of weeks before jose
valim and possibly wycats turn their attention to a major clean up of
active record to get old stuff out of the way.
Aaron P. (of Nokogiri), José and to some degree I have been
actively looking at the current state of performance in ActiveRecord.
The important open ticket is at
https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994/tickets/5098-rails-3-beta-4-activerecord-5x-slower-than-rails-235
(which overstates the magnitude of the performance issue, but not the
reality of it). I recently commented on the ticket (https://
rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994/tickets/5098-rails-3-beta-4-
activerecord-5x-slower-than-rails-235#ticket-5098-60). Aaron is
spending some time with Arel, which seems to be the crux of the
issue.
- Memory leaks…seems to me that you wouldn’t wan’t to deploy a
high traffic site with beta4 and ruby 1.9.2 rc…x… until the memory
issues are taken care of. That might be a ruby 1.9.2 issue…it might
be a rails issue, that is beyond me at the moment.
Yes. The two important tickets are at
https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994/tickets/5042-memory-leak-with-ruby-192-rails-30-beta-4
and
#4183 Possible memory leak in Rails 3 - Ruby on Rails - rails.
This is something we’re actively looking into. This is likely a
problem in Ruby 1.9, but it may already be resolved (http://
redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/show/3466#note-3). We’re working with
Aman G. (memprof), and have so far been unable to reproduce this
issue. We are actively trying though.
My best guess at the silence about what is going on? I dunno… Seems
known".
Hehe. I think it’s perfectly fine for people to be asking what we’re
up to. We may not always be able to give a satisfactory response
(lately, it’s been “as soon as we stop getting so many darn bugs”),
but it’s a perfectly valid question to ask as often as you’d like.
If you are on the core team, and you don’t get why people are excited
and confused and a little bit irritated at the lack of
communication…let me restate that, I don’t know how you could not
understand after most of you have given presentation after
presentation about what is coming.
Yep. We get it loud and clear. We’ve spent a lot of time building
something kick-ass, have talked a lot about it, and people want it. We
understand that fully. Thanks to the efforts of the community, we’ve
gotten a huge inflow of bugs, as well as feedback from plugin authors.
This is why RSpec, DataMapper, Haml, etc. are working flawlessly on
the Rails 3 betas. We’ve come a long way, and are closing in on the
finish-line.
But this is an opportunity. You build a community by
communicating…see that the root of both words is the same? You
build irritation by not communicating.
Absolutely. Again, we’ve communicated in too scattered a fashion for
people to put the pieces together reasonably. I’m going to try to
resolve that in the weeks ahead.
And those of you who want the noobs to take a ticket and fix it and
send the patch…how long have you been working in rails…a couple
years?? As a member of the ruby and rails community you can’t give
others a couple of years to catch up - and in some cases - surpass
your ruby and rails skill?
Absolutely. While I think it’s helpful for us to point people at the
bug tracker if there’s interested in contributing, saying “it’ll be
done when you start helping” is not actually that helpful. A lot of
people on this list, and out there in the world, aren’t necessarily
capable of contributing, especially at this stage. The Bugmash project
(Home · railsbridge/docs Wiki · GitHub), which
RailsBridge puts on periodically, is extremely helpful at getting new
contributors past the initial hurdles. Their contribution guidelines
are quite helpful as well.
And rails itself…it’s no accident that it took this long to re-
factor it. Rails 3 really is a lot of merb, isn’t it? And only because
it was rebuilt with lots of new outside blood will it be as good as
it’s going to be. All the more to look to the future of what will
rails 3 would have been without merb…and what will rails 4 or 5 be
without @whineynoobgenius4 sticking around?
Absolutely. Over the past year or so, we’ve added @tenderlove,
@josevalim, and @spastorino and @xaviernoria to the group of people
with commit access. Half a dozen or so more (Mikel L., Neeraj
Singh, Andrew White, Rohit Arondekar, and some others I’m forgetting
atm) are actively participating in the day-to-day Rails 3 work. From
my vantage point, we have far more activity and regular infusions of
new blood today than we did when I started work on Rails 3 in January
2009. And I absolutely agree that continuing to support the
participation of new, interested developers is critical to the
progress of Rails in the years ahead.
last day or two and it really helps.
My own personal position (can’t speak for anyone else on Rails core)
is that no noob is too irritating to spend time listening to. In fact,
the perspective of new Rails developers is very important, since there
are certainly irritations in the process that we can no longer see (as
you have pointed out). I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again:
if you are interested in participating in the development of Rails,
feel free to email me directly. I spend a fair amount of my day-to-day
work communicating with community members, and I don’t mind helping
people get up to speed.
And @jeremy/@bitsweet - good for you for speaking your mind, but the
FU stuff has a way of coming back to haunt you in things like client
negotiations. That post will be here for eons…and you have no idea
of all of the people who have seen it and taken note. If I had done
that it would keep me up at night.So yes…everybody remain calm. Our long community nightmare is
almost over. A few days - couple of weeks at the outside, and people
can finish their gems and plugins, and books, and ide’s and projects,
and hosting platforms and…well, you get the idea…
Many of those who are working on gems, plugins, books, IDEs and
hosting platforms have taken the drawn-out process of the Rails 3 beta
period to provide extremely useful feedback about the current state of
things. The feedback of David C. (rspec, on exposed testing
APIs), Nathan Weisenbaum (haml, on templating APIs), several people at
New Relic (on instrumentation), the folks at Engine Y. and Heroku
(on bundler) and Sam Ruby (Agile Web D. on Rails, on general
backwards compatibility) have been critical to ensuring that the final
release of Rails 3 is up to the level of polish that you’ve come to
expect from Rails. Thank you all.
There I’ve said it. I’ll go back to the shadows now…
Thank you for your lengthy and articulate response. You are correct:
we need to communicate with the community in a single, public place.
This will be resolved.
On Monday 26 July 2010, Ryan B. wrote:
this thread have made over the years.
Again with the e-penis comparisons. Jeez.
I think you’re getting this wrong.
I personally couldn’t give a crap (and you shouldn’t either) about
how many contributions they’ve made to the mailing list. The manner
in which they are acting now is not beneficial to the community. If
they were even decent members then they’d be decent all the time.
Making x contributions to the mailing list doesn’t give you the
right to act in the manner seen in this thread.
I’ll put it more plainly. I wouldn’t want people to leave who put a lot
of effort into answering questions no matter how silly or misguided they
are (the questions!). That doesn’t make what these people say and do
right all the time and I don’t have to like it all the time.
If you don’t like that somebody is whinging because Rails 3 isn’t out
yet, […]
Don’t get me started whinging about things related to Rails. No matter,
we all in here are apparently still using it.
Michael
–
Michael S.
mailto:[email protected]
http://www.schuerig.de/michael/