Ruby Editor

Felix W. wrote:

An incomplete list:

  • Charge advertisers for presenting online “banner” ads to users
  • Collect marketing data on consumer habits, then selling the data or using
    it for targeted advertising.
  • Charging websites to become listed
  • Charging websites for better placement in lists
    I don’t think they do these two, do they?
  • Charging websites to purchase keywords for themselves
  • Charging other search engines to use their catalog

AdSense is a huge, huge product.

I guess the point is that Google probably could be an open source
company if it wanted. The value in Google is in the brand and the vast
infrastructure investment (in which I include all their hired brains).

-----Original Message-----
From: M. Edward (Ed) Borasky [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 6:22 AM
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: Re: Ruby Editor

[snip]

OK … where does Google’s money come from? The searches
are free, and most of their other “products” are as well.

An incomplete list:

  • Charge advertisers for presenting online “banner” ads to users
  • Collect marketing data on consumer habits, then selling the data or
    using
    it for targeted advertising.
  • Charging websites to become listed
  • Charging websites for better placement in lists
  • Charging websites to purchase keywords for themselves
  • Charging other search engines to use their catalog

AdSense is a huge, huge product.

In message [email protected],
[email protected]” writes:

What would those business models be? And are they so complex that the
developer must spend a great deal of time devising and testing them
rather than developing software? I am tremendously grateful for OSS
but I have yet to figure it out. It seems that most of it is based on
some sort of patronage which is no business model at all.

Sure it is! It’s a traditional and well-understood one.

For the most part, one sells services and consulting; this has been
shown
to work. The other thing is a lot of patronage – people fund
development
if it helps sell their product, for instance.

That said, I don’t object to non-open-source stuff, I just don’t plan to
spend my time getting used to an editor that I can’t run on every
computer
I own. So I use vi.

-s

[email protected] wrote:

How long did it take these two companies to get off some sort of
patronage and start making money?
http://www.red-hat.com/about/companyprofile/history/
No idea about MySQL at all.

then sell a closed-source product.
You could argue that Apple have partially done this with OS X and the
tools that are distributed with it, but that relationship is more
tenuous.

You could even argue that Microsoft with it’s open source Ajax
Foundation Library is using this model. I’d be hard pressed to call
these three companies open source.
No, but they do follow business plans that heavily involve open source
development. At least, Apple and IBM do. MS have a very long
barge-pole for not touching the GPL with stored somewhere in Nevada.

Still, let’s say I’ve got this great little editor called TextBuddy I
want to get off the ground. How do any of these models, including the
kickbacks from Google mentioned later in this thread apply to me?
Find a business type that will support it. If your editor can support
it, it may be worth various businesses’ money to have custom file format
readers built, for example. Alternatively, find something that you
can do better than anyone else because you’ve got your editor (and it’s
especially good at whatever specific thing you designed it for), set
yourself up in the marketplace doing that, and then release it once
you’re secure, possibly keeping to yourself the little bit of extra code
that makes what you’re doing special. Near as I can tell, that’s
exactly what 37signals did.

To bo honest, text editors are always going to be really hard, because
the free incumbents are so damn good (and, let’s not forget,
well-entrenched).

On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 10:41:54PM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

Alex Y. wrote:

I wasn’t talking about independent developers
specifically, but what reason is there that MySQL’s business model
couldn’t scale down?
Lots of reasons … look up “barriers to entry” in any MBA textbook.

Without making a case for specific barriers to entry that apply in the
case of MySQL’s business model, you’re not actually making a point.
Throwing economics terms around without any context for applicability
does not constitute evidence for an argument. For instance, “barriers
to
entry” applies to anyone entering any market, including small to medium
firms like MySQL, individual developers trying to sell individual pieces
of software like TextMate, open source software support firms, huge
hardware companies that are more well known for the software side of
things, and so on. It doesn’t matter what your business model is, how
big your company is, or what the legal situation is – there will always
be barriers to entry. The point where all three of those things come
into play is in determining what barriers to entry apply, and how
insurmountable they are.

Besides, it doesn’t really matter if you don’t like this particular open
source business model. There are plenty of others.
There are plenty of business models. There are many fewer profitable
business models, and almost all of them require that a product or
service exist and outrank its competitors on important non-price
differentiators of quality as perceived by customers.

All attempts to enter a market require some initial investment (barring
pathological exceptions). It’s actually easier (read: “cheaper” in
terms
of invested resources) to build recognition and desirability for a piece
of software when its source is open than when it’s closed. In the open
source case, you can just toss it out in the wild and see if it picks up
enough steam to provide you with some opportunity for generating revenue
(whether it involves direct support, feature commissions like RMS
provides for GNU Emacs, secondary advertising revenue, or something
else); in the closed source case you have to find some way to convince
people to give it a try without opening the source to them, which
significantly limits your potential audience even if you initially give
it away, but leaves you opportunity to develop a per-unit retail revenue
stream.

People seem to have some strange impression that open source development
means no revenue streams – but what it really means is that different
revenue streams are available to you. You can either follow in the
footsteps of people who have already developed some of those revenue
models, or you can pioneer a new one if you’re clever enough and
potentially reap huge rewards. The differing development models result
in differing opportunities. Thinking there aren’t any opportunities
demonstrates a lack of imagination, not a lack of opportunities.

Red Hat is another good example of a thriving open source business
model. However, in the case of RHEL, I would argue that it is
technologically superior to its competition, with the possible exception
of Solaris. There just isn’t another server OS out there that runs on
commodity hardware with that level of security, reliability and performance.

Well . . . there is, but I don’t think you’re counting other possible
examples in your comparison (like the BSD Unix variants). I’ll just
assume you’re lumping all Linux distributions together when you say
RHEL,
and not excluding other distributions like Debian and Slackware.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 10:21:52PM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

cheers,
mick
OK … where does Google’s money come from? The searches are free, and
most of their other “products” are as well.

Advertising revenue, I believe . . . which leads to another revenue
stream available to open source software. In fact, that provides a
business model (almost?) unique to open source software, since making
money entirely off advertising while giving away downloadable software
is
a lot more viable as a business model with open source software than
with
closed source software.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 10:33:32PM +0900, Alex Y. wrote:

  • Collect marketing data on consumer habits, then selling the data or using
    it for targeted advertising.
  • Charging websites to become listed
  • Charging websites for better placement in lists
    I don’t think they do these two, do they?

They have paid placement. It’s not mixed in with the normal search
rankings, though, which is probably what you were thinking. They keep
the two separated (as far as I’m aware).

  • Charging websites to purchase keywords for themselves
  • Charging other search engines to use their catalog

AdSense is a huge, huge product.

I guess the point is that Google probably could be an open source
company if it wanted. The value in Google is in the brand and the vast
infrastructure investment (in which I include all their hired brains).

It absolutely could. It’s kind of disappointing that:

  1. Google isn’t an open source company (well, it uses some open source
    software, but you know what I mean).

  2. It doesn’t support open source platforms with a lot of its
    “products”.

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

Alex Y. wrote:

I wasn’t talking about independent developers
specifically, but what reason is there that MySQL’s business model
couldn’t scale down?
Lots of reasons … look up “barriers to entry” in any MBA textbook.
Not entirely sure I understand. What barriers do you mean?

Besides, it doesn’t really matter if you don’t like this particular open
source business model. There are plenty of others.
There are plenty of business models. There are many fewer profitable
business models, and almost all of them require that a product or
service exist and outrank its competitors on important non-price
differentiators of quality as perceived by customers.
Yup. One place that open source projects tend to outrank closed source
ones is in the user community (yes, I know that there are
counterexamples in both directions, and also examples where that’s
completely irrelevant).

On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 10:39:59PM +0900, [email protected] wrote:

On Jul 23, 4:22 am, Alex Y. [email protected] wrote:

For example, free the software,
charge for service. It seems to work for (at least) Red Hat and MySQL.

How long did it take these two companies to get off some sort of
patronage and start making money?

I’m not sure, and it’s really not relevant to the point. The point is
that there’s a viable business model here – and, in fact, because the
revenue needs of a smaller project are less than those of a larger
business like Red Hat and MySQL, you could probably become profitable
somewhat more quickly as an individual developer than trying to leap
immediately into something the current size of Red Hat.

Still, let’s say I’ve got this great little editor called TextBuddy I
want to get off the ground. How do any of these models, including the
kickbacks from Google mentioned later in this thread apply to me?

As already pointed out, there’s not as much opportunity for filling a
need with a text editor as with some other software types. TextMate was
an exception because of the relatively new opportunity provided by MacOS
X as a user environment (something like Vim doesn’t really blend well
with that environment, at least yet). In any case, anything other than
the idea of using software to sell hardware, all of those revenue
models apply to your example.

For instance, Richard Stallman survived for years primarily on revenue
generated through feature requests for Emacs. I’m sure that’s at least
part of the reason that Emacs is almost a credible OS replacement. All
it’s really missing is its own HAL and bootloader (it relies on those of
the host OS instead). Ha ha, only serious.

Hassan S. wrote:

On 7/21/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky [email protected] wrote:

What ever happened to the browser that Sun used to ship with Java as a
demo? Is that still around? I liked that one.

HotJava. Yeah, it was nice, but was never developed beyond support
for HTML 3.2, and no, it’s no longer around.

A shame it wasn’t open-sourced at the point of abandonment…

On 7/21/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky [email protected] wrote:

What ever happened to the browser that Sun used to ship with Java as a
demo? Is that still around? I liked that one.

HotJava. Yeah, it was nice, but was never developed beyond support
for HTML 3.2, and no, it’s no longer around.

A shame it wasn’t open-sourced at the point of abandonment…

On Jul 23, 2007, at 8:33 AM, Alex Y. wrote:

  • Charging websites to purchase keywords for themselves

Google is not open source. The open source some software, but their
core business is built around closed source search algorithms.
Otherwise, everybody with enough money would implement the same tools.

The translation of all this is “barrier to entry” = 1 man can not do
it and make much very easily.
1 man can not normally fund the team of attorneys to enforce
licensing. gPL or otherwise.

point 2:
Nobody is saying all or nothing! Not everything needs to be or even
should be open sourced. That’s just crazy absolutism for no reason.

Many people are indeed making a living with open source, but for the
truly independent developer, it is not always a viable option.

It’s not a black and white issue about all software. You write it,
you do what you will with it!

John J. wrote:

[snip]

  • Charging websites for better placement in lists


Alex

Google is not open source. The open source some software, but their core
business is built around closed source search algorithms.
Otherwise, everybody with enough money would implement the same tools.

There’s really nothing in their indexing/search algorithms that a bright
undergrad with a computer science and computational linear algebra
background couldn’t re-invent. The key is they got there first and
built a huge server farm to make it work. Ideas are cheap – thinking is
cheap – knowing is cheap. It’s actually building the stuff that’s
required! If you don’t build it, they can’t come! :slight_smile:

Chad P. wrote:

Red Hat is another good example of a thriving open source business
model. However, in the case of RHEL, I would argue that it is
technologically superior to its competition, with the possible exception
of Solaris. There just isn’t another server OS out there that runs on
commodity hardware with that level of security, reliability and performance.

Well . . . there is, but I don’t think you’re counting other possible
examples in your comparison (like the BSD Unix variants). I’ll just
assume you’re lumping all Linux distributions together when you say RHEL,
and not excluding other distributions like Debian and Slackware.

Well …

  1. I’ve heard good things about BSD, but it’s really hard to find
    sysadmins for it. It may be more stable than any Linux kernel, but if
    you can’t find someone to maintain it, it’s not going to be useful.

  2. No I was not lumping all Linux distros together – I was
    excluding Debian and Slackware. They aren’t as hard to find sysadmins
    for as BSD, but they are enough different from Red Hat that there’s
    still a learning curve. I meant Red Hat!

  3. I’m surprised nobody defended Windows Server 2003. Just because it’s
    closed source and expensive doesn’t mean it’s a bad OS in terms of
    reliability, security or performance. Apache, MySQL, PHP, PostgreSQL,
    Ruby, Rails, etc. run just fine on Windows 2003 server

Todd B. wrote:

I’m not sure why – maybe a change in OS philosophy on my part – but
I think Windows 2000 server was a Microsoft high watermark for
stability/reliability/useability in my opinion. We had plenty of
those guys sitting around with nary a problem.
Well … aside from the fact that they weren’t hyperthreading aware,
they were indeed solid beasts and still are. If Windows 2000
Professional was still supported and would do RDC server, I would never
have upgraded to XP. But I do think Windows Server 2003 is better than
2000 (at least now, after four years). :slight_smile:

I’m a minimilast, so I run with BSD and vim. BSD is a bit weird in
the OSS world. They put a sturdier cap on the open source zeal
present in most linux distros.

I used to be a real minimalist. I did some of my best hacking in Forth
on an HP-100 Pocket PC. Darn thing ran Perl 4 too at an acceptable
speed, doubled as a VT100 with a usable keyboard and an almost visible
80x24 screen. I’ll bet it will run Ruby, although I’m not sure what kind
of script you could cram into 640K.

Then again, with the older Forths you didn’t even need the OS – it was
part of the language. :slight_smile:

I think it was the writer Neal Stephenson that attempted to compare
OS’s to vehicles. Well, if his Linux is a tank, the former BeOS a
batmobile, Windows a Saturn, then I guess BSD would be like a
locomotive – sturdy, but you have to follow the track.

I like games like this, so let’s do it with languages. Forth is what? A
Dodge Colt? Scheme is a motorcycle? No … the other way around. Forth
is a motorcycle and Scheme is a Dodge Colt (or Volkswagen Beetle). And
Ruby is ??

unsubscribe

On 7/23/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky [email protected] wrote:

  1. I’m surprised nobody defended Windows Server 2003. Just because it’s
    closed source and expensive doesn’t mean it’s a bad OS in terms of
    reliability, security or performance. Apache, MySQL, PHP, PostgreSQL,
    Ruby, Rails, etc. run just fine on Windows 2003 server

I’m not sure why – maybe a change in OS philosophy on my part – but
I think Windows 2000 server was a Microsoft high watermark for
stability/reliability/useability in my opinion. We had plenty of
those guys sitting around with nary a problem.

Licensing wasn’t too much of a hassle, either. At least they weren’t
doing things like some of the engineering software brands we ran did;
namely, more often than not, requiring serial and/or parallel port
dongles on servers of all places! Talk about grabbin’ ya by the
'nads.

I’m a minimilast, so I run with BSD and vim. BSD is a bit weird in
the OSS world. They put a sturdier cap on the open source zeal
present in most linux distros.

I think it was the writer Neal Stephenson that attempted to compare
OS’s to vehicles. Well, if his Linux is a tank, the former BeOS a
batmobile, Windows a Saturn, then I guess BSD would be like a
locomotive – sturdy, but you have to follow the track.

Todd

On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 03:37:40PM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

I like games like this, so let’s do it with languages. Forth is what? A
Dodge Colt? Scheme is a motorcycle? No … the other way around. Forth
is a motorcycle and Scheme is a Dodge Colt (or Volkswagen Beetle). And
Ruby is ??

. . . a Toyota Prius, except it’s pretty.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 12:23:20PM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

and not excluding other distributions like Debian and Slackware.

Well …

  1. I’ve heard good things about BSD, but it’s really hard to find
    sysadmins for it. It may be more stable than any Linux kernel, but if
    you can’t find someone to maintain it, it’s not going to be useful.

You could probably find a couple on this list, and I’m sure you’d hit
half a dozen if you swung a dead cat in the freebsd-questions mailing
list. There’s at least one guy among the netadmin volunteers at the
Wikimedia Foundation. My experience is that they’re pretty easy to
find.
In fact, I find them to be easier to locate than Solaris admins.

Where have you been looking?

  1. No I was not lumping all Linux distros together – I was
    excluding Debian and Slackware. They aren’t as hard to find sysadmins
    for as BSD, but they are enough different from Red Hat that there’s
    still a learning curve. I meant Red Hat!

Um . . . a halfway competent Linux admin should be able to make the
transition from RHEL to Debian in about two days of familiarization. A
few files are in different places, and APT isn’t exactly the same as
YUM,
but otherwise Linux is Linux.

Granted, Slackware can be a pain in the butt for someone who hasn’t
tried
to install it before. . . .

  1. I’m surprised nobody defended Windows Server 2003. Just because it’s
    closed source and expensive doesn’t mean it’s a bad OS in terms of
    reliability, security or performance. Apache, MySQL, PHP, PostgreSQL,
    Ruby, Rails, etc. run just fine on Windows 2003 server

No, that doesn’t mean it’s bad – there are, however, other things that
mean it’s not very good. In my estimation, such considerations as the
amount of administrative overhead, security costs, reduced remote
administration capability, and increased resource footprint for minimal
operation add up to a lot of reasons it isn’t in the same league as the
major free unices. Keep in mind that “administrative overhead” covers a
lot of ground, too – like the increased difficulty of managing software
(which in and of itself covers a lot of ground).

WS2k3 isn’t completely worthless, to be sure, but given an option it’s
usually better to avoid it in favor of something unixy (especially if
you
want to do your system scripting in Ruby).